Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

That's true but the real competitor for *BSD isn't Windows, it's Linux - because if Linux can do all the nice things, what's left for *BSD. "Stability"? wink


And if you have a look at some tendencies in BSD community - some of them are well-know websites

http://freebsd.amazingdev.com/blog/archives/000852.html
http://geek00l.blogspot.com/2007/02/gentoo-is-now.html
http://taosecurity.blogspot.com/2007/03 … buntu.html

Server yes, but desktop is more and more a no-go for some people.

Last edited by Oliver (2007-03-22 16:20:58)

F!XMBR

Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. --Pericles

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

That's true but the real competitor for *BSD isn't Windows, it's Linux - because if Linux can do all the nice things, what's left for *BSD. "Stability"? wink

Yes,That's right, but BSD and Linux are "fighting" over ~.2% of the overall market, even if the trend is towards Linux today, it won't be a huge disaster...

Speaking of stability, a few years ago, right after 5.0 had been released, I has explaining to a colegue why I use FreeBSD instead of Linux, among other things I said that it was a bit more stable.
About three minutes later my workstation (running 5.0) totally locked up .. without reason (Damn the evil 5 release)

Anyway...
Most problems I see come more from a lack of knowledge rather than a defunct OS.
Not that I'm blaming anyone for this, some things are indeed more difficult than they should be in FreeBSD, and Linux does have some advantages.

What's left for *BSD you ask?
The ports collection - I never really liked Gentoo's portage.
Documentation - The reason I switched from Linux to FreeBSD was mainly for the (much) better documentation.
Overall better organization/structure
community - I find the BSD community much more "mature" and friendlier (while the Linux community is a bit "puberal", I don't want to stereotype, but, for example, the Linux community seems to have no idea what "constructive crtitism " is).

In any case, the battle isn't over, it's just beginning...

Last edited by Carpetsmoker (2007-03-23 01:19:47)

Trust me, I know what I'm doing.

28

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

I agree with you on the BSD strengths, CarpetSmoker, but if you don't have the software you need, then all of these things that are BSD advantages are a non-starter.  I can only think of two pieces of commercial software that run natively on BSD: win4bsd and SoftMaker's office products.  OK, four, if you count Opera and Java.  That's it.

Linux?  Matlab, Mathematica, FEMLab (and other CFD packages), Oracle, Adobe Reader, Flash, Crossover Office, VMware, VirtualBox, and many others.  Of course there are Linux versions of win4bsd, SoftMaker, Opera and Java.  Many of these run with the Linuxator, but my experience with the Adobe Reader and Flash is not that good over the long haul.  The Reader still freezes with some regularity, particularly when printing.  Who knows why.

So if you run BSD, you practically can only can run the open-source software.  While it is getting a lot better, it just does not cover enough areas.

Also, market share is not important for all of these discussions, only for the mainstream things like Photoshop.  It is the number of users that is often more important for specialized applications.  If you have 100K users for a particular piece of software, that is not even noise in the total software market.  It is enough, though, if each of those is willing to pay $1000 for a product.  That's a $10 million market, and while that is not big, it can be enough to support a small company once you include the usual games for support and upgrades.  And $1K is not that much: the CFD programs usually start at $10K *per year*.  Even at that price they are a pretty good deal for the amount of time they save you.

Alright, enough rambling...

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

@Carpetsmoker, it doesn't matter what is left for you or for me, we wouldn't use FreeBSD, if it weren't enough wink But we're more than 5 users, aren't we? What's left for the desktop-user, the scientist, the hobbyist in some special areas and so on? You have to be attractive for different users.


>The ports collection - I never really liked Gentoo's portage.

I don't even see quality in Gentoo wink

But that's not the point, Scrotto mentioned it, we do need binary packages too, not only at release time.

There is even native Flash 9 beta for Solaris!

http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer9.html

So I'm working with Solaris too, now tell me how many people actually do need Flash at Solaris? Money talks ...

F!XMBR

Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. --Pericles

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

DrJ wrote:

So if you run BSD, you practically can only can run the open-source software.  While it is getting a lot better, it just does not cover enough areas.

The BSD's do not advocate commercial software, it just so happens that there is some commercial software that works. The same is said for linux too. Anything that gains a market  gets the interest of commercial vendors because there are users who do not care about politics and philosophy and want to just use there software.

Lack of software has null to do with the BSD's or linux. Its to with peoples urge to write the software.

When you want to get a job done, using the tool that does the best job is what matters. If its something that's available on the BSD's that great, if not, its unfair to blame the OS, because its a foundation for application to run on.

Take a different scenario, you build a house, the foundations are perfect, the problem is the bathroom looks ugly, do you blame the builders that made the foundation of the home?

The whole idea of open source , from the operating system up is to make it freely available to do what you want with it, the commercial tools are not going away because of this.

I hope that's explained that its not a anything really to do with BSD's

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

Oliver wrote:

There is even native Flash 9 beta for Solaris!

http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer9.html

So I'm working with Solaris too, now tell me how many people actually do need Flash at Solaris? Money talks ...

Solaris has made quite a few leaps recently from what iv;e heard in regard to the userbase, its a product that is heavily backed.

BSD's do not have any of that, and i don't think it was ever meant to win a popularity contest.

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

>BSD's do not have any of that, and i don't think it was ever meant to win a popularity contest.

Do you really think Solaris(!) or OpenSolaris has an userbase almost equal to FreeBSD in terms of desktop? I doubt it, I do know workstation users in scientific environments, the would kill themselves before installing Flash on their precious machine. In my opinion it's money, money that bought Java some months ago for FreeBSD (FreeBSDFoundation). Why do they give Solaris away for nothing or open it up as OpenSolaris? wink
Have a look at Netcraft etc. there is no leading Solaris anymore, since years. Solaris isn't a bad system, but it's a pain in the backside to install software or to update the system compared to other operating systems. It's with SUN service for most of the companies nothing to bother with, but the mere user is certainly "missing in action".

F!XMBR

Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. --Pericles

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

>Lack of software has null to do with the BSD's or linux. Its to with peoples urge to write the software.

Of course you need an proper base, that consists of the following:

-easy to maintain
-lot of applications ready to install
-some "killer-applications" that makes the transition from an other operating system very smooth, like Wine/Cedega for example
-drivers, especially for graphics and sound cards and wlan for mobile computing

The equation "if someone needs an application, someone will write this precious software" isn't true anymore, this was okay at the beginning of the open-source movement. Nowadays more and more people aren't able to develop software, they are choosing according to the offerings in the open-source community. And at the moment Linux has made the best offer. FreeBSD is lousing ground because of conservatism, one step forward and at the same time 10 steps backward.

F!XMBR

Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. --Pericles

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

Oliver wrote:

Do you really think Solaris(!) or OpenSolaris has an userbase almost equal to FreeBSD in terms of desktop? I doubt it, I do know workstation users in scientific environments, the would kill themselves before installing Flash on their precious machine. In my opinion it's money, money that bought Java some months ago for FreeBSD (FreeBSDFoundation). Why do they give Solaris away for nothing or open it up as OpenSolaris? wink
Have a look at Netcraft etc. there is no leading Solaris anymore, since years. Solaris isn't a bad system, but it's a pain in the backside to install software or to update the system compared to other operating systems. It's with SUN service for most of the companies nothing to bother with, but the mere user is certainly "missing in action".

I have on a recent linux podcast (lugradio)heard that at open source events, the booths for opensolaris is getting quite a lot of attention, sun are by no means relying on solaris for there business model, in fact they certify some linux distros.   Sun opened up Solaris because of linux. They first opened staroffice which was a success and then followed with other products, in fact there are going to open source everything eventually, at least that what Simon Phipps has been saying.

I could be wrong, but i think they still make quite a lot of money from there trusted product.

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

Oliver wrote:

Of course you need an proper base, that consists of the following:

-easy to maintain
-lot of applications ready to install
-some "killer-applications" that makes the transition from an other operating system very smooth, like Wine/Cedega for example
-drivers, especially for graphics and sound cards and wlan for mobile computing

The equation "if someone needs an application, someone will write this precious software" isn't true anymore, this was okay at the beginning of the open-source movement. Nowadays more and more people aren't able to develop software, they are choosing according to the offerings in the open-source community. And at the moment Linux has made the best offer. FreeBSD is lousing ground because of conservatism, one step forward and at the same time 10 steps backward.

Almost all open source user applications that work on linux , will work on the BSD and other unices, as long as its not too low level, it will work.

Wine/Cedega interacts with the kernel, which makes porting less trivial.

Everyday there are more drivers developed for the BSD's, its only matter of time when a non-existing driver appears, the new project to use linux drivers should help bring more drivers.

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

>Almost all open source user applications that work on linux , will work on the BSD and other unices, as long as its not too low level, it will work.

The lack of something like Alsa or V4L (you see this problem in Voip/Webcam applications e.g.) is something too to consider.

>Wine/Cedega interacts with the kernel, which makes porting less trivial.

I don't see any kernel interface, if you look at the MLs it's probably a problem with the threads. Less trivial? Look at the mailinglists, they just don't care.

Don't get me wrong, I don't wan't to kill FreeBSD or flame it, burn it, whatever. I'm criticising this stubborn attitude in the community "oh it's all well, look here, look there" - it's crap. There are indeed problems, I see the problems in every day work with DesktopBSD or PCBSD. You cannot tell people such a crap, because it lacks every bit of reality for them.

If you tell someone in BSD something like this, you will hear something too ...

-I don't need webcams
-I don't need office
-I don't need games
-I don't need driver xyz because I don't like it
-I don't need Flash because it's crap

and so on. That's a very personal attidue which doesn't help FreeBSD at all! I have my office, I have my drivers and so on, but I'm not egoistic!

This "I don't care" attitude will be the doom (sort of) of *BSD. Yes the well-known joke "BSD is dying" smile - it isn't a joke anymore. BSD has been developed in a time without any "multimedia", "games" or big office mumbo jumbo - but we're living in 2007! It's not 1985 anymore or flower power time back in 1968. With this attitude you can kill off any new user ... therefore nothing happens in *BSD toward the average user. And remember, I tell you this, I'm discussing this because I care. I'm conviced of this superior operating system, but it doesn't fit for most of the beginners, apart from nerds, some computer science students and administrators.

If you have a look,

http://www.fixmbr.de/?s=freebsd&Submit=Suche

this is my weblog, okay it's in German but you see lot of FreeBSD entries in it. I'm an avid user of this nice operating system, but I'm not blind.

F!XMBR

Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. --Pericles

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

lobster wrote:
Oliver wrote:

Do you really think Solaris(!) or OpenSolaris has an userbase almost equal to FreeBSD in terms of desktop? I doubt it, I do know workstation users in scientific environments, the would kill themselves before installing Flash on their precious machine. In my opinion it's money, money that bought Java some months ago for FreeBSD (FreeBSDFoundation). Why do they give Solaris away for nothing or open it up as OpenSolaris? wink
Have a look at Netcraft etc. there is no leading Solaris anymore, since years. Solaris isn't a bad system, but it's a pain in the backside to install software or to update the system compared to other operating systems. It's with SUN service for most of the companies nothing to bother with, but the mere user is certainly "missing in action".

I have on a recent linux podcast (lugradio)heard that at open source events, the booths for opensolaris is getting quite a lot of attention, sun are by no means relying on solaris for there business model, in fact they certify some linux distros.   Sun opened up Solaris because of linux. They first opened staroffice which was a success and then followed with other products, in fact there are going to open source everything eventually, at least that what Simon Phipps has been saying.

I could be wrong, but i think they still make quite a lot of money from there trusted product.

First Flash for Solaris hasn't anything to do with OpenSolaris. OpenSolaris kit is something for developers, nothing for the desktop. Distros/Forks like Belenix are somewhat alpha and not compatible in every aspect. This other OpenSolaris/GNU fork isn't compatible at all. So I'm speaking of Flash in the closed-source OS Solaris and this operating systems isn't the place for Flash games etc. Look at the former "Java-problem" in FreeBSD, money was the solution.
Secondly the do make the most of the money with service, it's not the hardware anymore or the OS itself.

F!XMBR

Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. --Pericles

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

Oliver wrote:

This "I don't care" attitude will be the doom (sort of) of *BSD. Yes the well-known joke "BSD is dying" smile - it isn't a joke anymore. BSD has been developed in a time without any "multimedia", "games" or big office mumbo jumbo - but we're living in 2007! It's not 1985 anymore or flower power time back in 1968. With this attitude you can kill off any new user ... therefore nothing happens in *BSD toward the average user. And remember, I tell you this, I'm discussing this because I care. I'm conviced of this superior operating system, but it doesn't fit for most of the beginners, apart from nerds, some computer science students and administrators.

So I have been following this thread and keeping fairly quiet but I gotta let it out sometime. I'm damn glad the BSD devs have this attitude. It's what allows me to do an install of *BSD and NOT have some nonsense like mono running random.exe at bootup because some idiot can't live without his favorite photo manager.

OpenOffice is there in ports. Nothing stopping anyone from instaling it. Sure it's painful to compile but that's nothing compared to the pain of using it, so they should get used to it.

I personally haven't the need or want for things like Wine/Cedega as I'm a BSD user and not a Windows or Linux user. If the Linux people of the world want to turn their distros into open source Windows knock-offs more power to em, but that nonsense needs to be kept far away from real UNIX systems.

Don't take this as an attack or a flame because it's definately not, but there has to be a place for those of us who actually use UNIX because we like it, not because it's free or we want to get one over on McSoft.

... and then they said "I bet you can't make MINIX kernel panic!!!" And that's when I got mad

39

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

KernelPanicked wrote:

I'm damn glad the BSD devs have this attitude. It's what allows me to do an install of *BSD and NOT have some nonsense like mono running random.exe at bootup because some idiot can't live without his favorite photo manager.

I have no issue with the BSD way of doing things from a software viewpoint.  I agree with scottro, though, that a binary install would be *really* nice. I just spent the last 28 hours rebuilding my system from the update of a single library.

OpenOffice is there in ports. Nothing stopping anyone from instaling it. Sure it's painful to compile but that's nothing compared to the pain of using it, so they should get used to it.

It is also totally inadequate.  It has gotten better, but is simply Is Not Good Enough.  And it never will be.

I personally haven't the need or want for things like Wine/Cedega as I'm a BSD user and not a Windows or Linux user. If the Linux people of the world want to turn their distros into open source Windows knock-offs more power to em, but that nonsense needs to be kept far away from real UNIX systems.

Irrelevant.  How do propose to use grants.gov, which is required to apply for government grants?  The software runs only on Windows and the Mac.  I need this to put food on the table.  How should I do this on the BSDs?  In Linux, you can use Wine or CrossOver.  It does not work on the BSDs.

Right now I use VMware, as Win4BSD is painful.  WMware seems that it will go away in six months.

Besides, Solaris is the only Unix here.  BSDs are Unix-derived only.

Don't take this as an attack or a flame because it's definately not, but there has to be a place for those of us who actually use UNIX because we like it, not because it's free or we want to get one over on McSoft.

I could give a rat's a** about getting one over on McSoft.  I want to get work done.

One simple example.  I got prints back from digital images taken from a fluorescence microscope.  They looked nothing like what I saw on the screen, and the prints are almost useless.  The answer is to calibrate my monitors.  How do you propose that I do that?  I have the hardware spider.  How do you propose that I obtain a good color profile, get calibration data, and use that in the GIMP?  That is built into Windows and the Mac on an OS level, and simple utilities are built into PhotoShop.  It is nowhere to be found in X11, the BSDs (or Linux) or the GIMP.  And how do you propose that I do that and get the 16-bit images that my camera captures?

This is about getting funding, and getting work done.

FWIW, I love Unix, and have used BSD Unix for the better part of 25 years.  I would love to see the BSDs thrive, and I would use them if they would do the things I need.  Right now, they just don't.  The only reason I continue to use them is that I know them, and money is tight.  Once the funds come in, using the BSDs on anything other than servers just does not make sense.

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

So your few edge cases make everything I said irrelevant? You bought into a bunch of locked in software that only works on Mac, Windows, or Linux+a_bunch_of_hacks and that means that all the BSDs should immediately go to work to get you out of that hole? I feel bad for ya I really do, but don't blame things on BSD that are simply not a fault of BSD.

... and then they said "I bet you can't make MINIX kernel panic!!!" And that's when I got mad

41

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

Would you please tell me what that locked-in software might be?  I don't see any that I purchased.  I only see things that others want from me, and things that I cannot do.

Let me give you another example.  I am publishing an article in the leading journal in my field.  They *strongly* prefer submissions in .doc or .rtf formats.  I don't make the rules.  This article is heavy on differential equations (ask scottro -- I sent him a copy), and I set it in troff.  OpenOffice has an equation mode very similar to troff, so I formatted it in OO.o, and tried to read it in Word.  It crashed.

That is pretty hard to do.  In any event, OO.o simply is not compatible enough for even this simple case.  For my purposes, it is useless.

Is that another edge example?

Last edited by DrJ (2007-03-24 13:43:09)

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

The problem is the lack of variety in FreeBSD. Okay so we don't need gamers, but don't we need scientists too? Scientists were the initial users of most Unices. I'm using LaText for example, but for most people OpenOffice isn't a solution and they are no hobbyists. The above example with publishing something according to someone elses rules is reality. It doesn't matter if you're a developer or administrator, so the quintessence is "shut up and get the power to server"? What a shame, I thought the superior quality would be adequate for other fields of work too.

F!XMBR

Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. --Pericles

43

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

KernelPanicked wrote:

...that means that all the BSDs should immediately go to work to get you out of that hole?

God, grow up.  Nowhere did I ask for that.  My point is that BSDs have no software, practically, other than open-source, and that is insufficient.  That is recognized implicitly by the presence of the linuxator, but that too falls short, as the inability to run VMware or Labview (the standard laboratory data acquisition and control program) show.

My suggestion is that FreeBSD as an organization convince VMware to do a native port or at least get the Linux version to run in the linuxator.  That benefits both the server and the desktop communities.  As it is now, the only way to run a virtual BSD machine in VMware is to run it under Windows or Linux.  That's nuts.  VMware would also allows use of programs that are necessary to interact with the real world.  And no, qemu/kqemu/win4bsd are not good enough.

VMware has said that they will do a port if the numbers are there, but they are not convinced they are.  I would give the FreeBSD Foundation money to support a canvassing and marketing effort.  I suspect others would too.  Orlando Bassotto is willing (he did the 3.2.1 port) but is running into roadblocks at VMware.

I personally think this is a *lot* more important than ZFS or DTrace or ULE or even the giant lock.  That's only my opinion, but if my mix of work is at all representative of a serious user and I can't get my work done because of lack of software, then whatever good attributes the OS has are meaningless.

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

I was not expecting this thread to turn into a messy argument, in fact i was not going to post any more.
I did not ask what it takes to overthrow ms or if that is viable.
I personally do not care, because choice is inherently a good thing.

I totally see DrJ and Oliver that you need to get your work done, however blaming the BSD's for not being windows essentially is cruel.
Office 2007 has plugin support for .ODF which should bring some interoperability between windows and the unices, and open office is going to have support for Ms Open XML format.

I believe, but please correct me if i am wrong, your claim of open office noting be good enough , comes down to familiarity of ms office?
Its hard for anyone to just change there working habits.

The BSD's, linux,windows and other operating systems were not designed to fit into every situation, the bsds work perfectly on the server.

Vmware works on windows and linux, fine, use them instead.

BSD is taking its own direction, just like vms (too add more complexity to the post wink) caters to a small market.

I do not see taken over the whole marketplace as something the BSDs should aim for.

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

DrJ wrote:

God, grow up.  Nowhere did I ask for that.

Glad to see this forum has stayed friendly *rolls eyes*

Frakly I'm going to say that NO your edge case software (what the heck is Labview?) and VPS software are absolutely not idicative of the needs of the average user.  Sure it would be nice to have these things but you guys need to relax a bit. The world will not stop spinning and the BSDs won't go way because you can't run VMWare.

... and then they said "I bet you can't make MINIX kernel panic!!!" And that's when I got mad

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

>I totally see DrJ and Oliver that you need to get your work done, however blaming the BSD's for not being windows essentially is cruel.

Why are you ignoring my sayings? It's not especially about anything I like - it's about gathering news users etc.

>BSD is taking its own direction,

It has not got any direction.

If I draw a conclusion of the other opionions I see again and again with the same attitude. BSD is a mere server os and hasn't got any qualities for daily work apart from servers and Unix-developers. So this is BSDs own "direction", pretending to be ready for most of the work and actually denying every step toward this goal?

>Office 2007 has plugin support for .ODF which should bring some interoperability between windows and the unices, and open office is going to have support for Ms Open XML format.

Really, no offence - but do you actually work in such a field? In reality these buzzwords are good for public relations, but not for daily work of companies or scientists.

So my conclusion is indeed, BSD isn't professional anymore! Criticism is something other than a flamewar, but open-source or especially *BSD isn't ready for reasoning. Tell beginners in DesktopBSD or PCBSD such a "crap - if someone asks me which system is best - my answer avoid *BSD, it isn't ready for beginners and it's not ready for professional work too.

Cheers,

Oliver

F!XMBR

Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it. --Pericles

47

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

lobster wrote:

I totally see DrJ and Oliver that you need to get your work done, however blaming the BSD's for not being windows essentially is cruel.

I *don't* want it to be Windows.  I just want to run a few specialized Windows applications when I need them, and those will never come to the BSDs.  And no, running Windows is not an option.  I spend most of my time using the command line, and what Windows has is dreadful.

I believe, but please correct me if i am wrong, your claim of open office noting be good enough , comes down to familiarity of ms office? Its hard for anyone to just change there working habits.

No, my knowledge of Word is rather rudimentary.  I use it mainly to view documents that others send me and make minor corrections.  The documents are not simple, though.  They are usually filled with graphics, math and chemistry.  They just don't render well in OO.o.

Personally, I think Word is a dreadful program, but it is so common that you just have to be able to use it in its native form.  For simple things, I use AbiWord.  For anything slightly complicated, I use troff, since I have used it for so very long that it is second nature.

The BSD's, linux,windows and other operating systems were not designed to fit into every situation, the bsds work perfectly on the server.

That's right.  My complaints are about the desktop.  I've had no issues with my BSD servers.

I do not see taken over the whole marketplace as something the BSDs should aim for.

I don't think so either, and have not made any claims in that direction.

FreeBSD seems to be a bit schizophrenic at the moment.  On the one hand, they are putting in support for wireless and power management and nVidia binaries (the 64-bit ones will happenone of these days), which are useful only for desktops.  On the other hand, they are ignoring applications, hoping that if they build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to their door.  I don't think it will happen.

I mentioned earlier that I probably will have to move on.  I don't want to, but it seems I have to.  I do that with great sadness, but hey, life goes on.

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

Oliver wrote:

Why are you ignoring my sayings? It's not especially about anything I like - it's about gathering news users etc.

My fault, if it appeared that i was ignoring, but it was intentional. Is bitching about a system news?


Oliver wrote:

It has not got any direction.

Its direction is to continue to a be stable, reliable server operating system. Power to serve , says it all, it does not say power to take over the world or something similar.
If its not what you want then there are other choices, if i said windows is not got any direction, most people would laugh at me, well for me windows is useless.

Oliver wrote:

If I draw a conclusion of the other opionions I see again and again with the same attitude. BSD is a mere server os and hasn't got any qualities for daily work apart from servers and Unix-developers. So this is BSDs own "direction", pretending to be ready for most of the work and actually denying every step toward this goal?

You are spot on, BSD is for the server and unix-developers, nobody is hiding that. BSD's direction is not going to change, at least the net,free,open and dragonfly anyway.

Oliver wrote:

Really, no offence - but do you actually work in such a field? In reality these buzzwords are good for public relations, but not for daily work of companies or scientists.

You brought office suits into this conversation and how open office is not ms office, i was just trying to explain why its not.

I understand that you use LaTeX, ms office does not, so i am lost where office suites comes in....

I also like WYSIWYM  (What You See Is What You Mean) paradigm which lyx uses. Or you can handcode LaTeX if you prefer.

Oliver wrote:

So my conclusion is indeed, BSD isn't professional anymore! Criticism is something other than a flamewar, but open-source or especially *BSD isn't ready for reasoning. Tell beginners in DesktopBSD or PCBSD such a "crap - if someone asks me which system is best - my answer avoid *BSD, it isn't ready for beginners and it's not ready for professional work too.

The definition of professional is taken from askoxford.com

Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

DrJ wrote:

FreeBSD seems to be a bit schizophrenic at the moment.  On the one hand, they are putting in support for wireless and power management and nVidia binaries (the 64-bit ones will happenone of these days), which are useful only for desktops.  On the other hand, they are ignoring applications, hoping that if they build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to their door.  I don't think it will happen.

Have you thought about asking the freebsd foundation to get a vendor to port a application you need?
I can only presume that not many people are asking for what you want ported...

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Re: What do you want or like to see in any of the BSD's ?

lobster wrote:

Have you thought about asking the freebsd foundation to get a vendor to port a application you need?  I can only presume that not many people are asking for what you want ported...

That's worthwhile to do.  I don't know if anyone has approached the FreeBSD Foundation with this request, but it is a recurring topic in the VMware (and Parallels) forums.